PM: But you did solo on, say, the Talk Talk stuff.

DR: Yeah, but I always referred to it as instrumental interludes. I think that solo's too strong a word for it. Because yeah if you think of the great soloists, Hendrix, you can't use the same word.

MS: Phil mentions Talk, Talk there, I was just about to come on to people you've played with in the eighties and the only 2 that actually spring to mind were Blancmange and Feargal Sharkey, which sound like a million miles away from Gabriel. How did that come about?

DR: Well the Feargal thing was really only promotional stuff and that was because Gail's husband worked in his management office and just asked me to go and help out. So that was quite funny. And with Neil the Blancmange singer, they'd been supporting Japan and I did a tour with Japan straight after Tin Drum, just a British tour, and they were the support band and I remembered thinking they were treated quite badly, 'cos I knew what being in a support band was like. The first date, there was nothing in their dressing room and I saw that the Japan guys weren't drinking any beer and leaving a lot of stuff and I said "do you mind if I take it through to the other guys" So I just did that. And actually I spoke to Neil just last week. We stayed in touch a little bit, about once or twice a year.

MS: Is he still in the music business or not?

DR: Yeah he does a lot of TV work, the odd drama, a lot of Channel 4 stuff and makes a living doing that.

MS: And what was it like working with David Sylvian then on tour?

DR: Peculiar. I mean it was quite an awkward time 'cos Mick Karn's girlfriend moved out of Mick's flat - into David's which was just across the square, they lived in Kensington, and it happened the day the tour began. So they were barely talking. And I only found out about that half way through. But some of it was fun. I actually thought that Tin Drum was incredibly clever for when it came out 'cos it was all done before you could program things. The other thing that was lovely, that they always used to talk about, 'cos I did odd bits of recording on their solo projects, but never for David, they were really into this thing with instruments. Kind of questioning and answering each other in a tune. Its rather beautiful and it was a lovely approach they had.

Part Two - So Us Up 1986-2002

MS: When the Real World studios opened in 1987-88, that allowed you, as I see it, to become used quite widely as a session musician.

DR: Yeah. I used to do a lot in London anyway. So if anything moving down here slowed it down 'cos I used to get a lot of calls just to go in and do an afternoon, but yes, in some ways.

MS: Fischer Z is one I have here. Destination Paradise.

DR: Ah...but that was just B Vox with Peter wasn't it?

MS: Yeah. Do you remember how that came about? Was he just recording at the studio?

DR: Yeah he was doing something and he asked us to go and help out. Upstairs. I remember it, but can't remember the song.

MS: Further From Love...

DR: No...but it was a nice track. He's still selling records in Germany which was why he was able to work, but I don't think it did anything.

MS: No. I only heard about the record 6 or 7 years later when an Italian collector who is a friend of mine and who sends me all these strange LPs where the artist has recorded a cover version of Mercy Street or something...some American college choirs stuff...and he's managed to track down a copy, so it's very obscure stuff.

MS: Yungchen Lhamo - She's another one you've played with.

MS: Any idea what Peter does on that LP 'cos it just says Drones on the credits? 

MS: Have you ever thought of doing it with Peter's narration?

DR: No I don't think he'd ever do it. But it was a lovely thing to do.

MS: Yeah there's some nice material on there.

DR: Yeah. Its very simple and the idea it really was aimed at mothers and their children to just sort of listen to the story and for their to be some bits of music. Well music that wouldn't be condescending. I think so often with kid's things its like tinky little sounds and no passion to it so we were trying to do something that took it up a little.

MS: But now that Real World have sort of opened up the net a bit haven't they, singer-songwriter wise, Joseph Arthur and Pina, perhaps its less incongruous to have...

DR: Yeah.

PM: The track on Plus From Us, sparked off a lot of interest, a lot of people were waiting for the album.
DR: Yes I don't know where he got that from...

MS: You must have a wealth of material.

DR: Well, I think I have, but then you listen to it and think, nah. I'll do something different, I don't know what I'd do now. It also reaches a point when maybe I should own up and admit I'm better at working for other people and with other people 'cos you end up in different places through workable compromise. I'll review it again in the New Year.

PM: Well I've found it very frustrating listening to the Random Hold demos - but you clearly had most if not all the tracks written - and you're left thinking "where was that album at the time?"

DR: Well the second Random album never got recorded and then the stuff that I've still got lying about some moments are nice, but I think music's moved on so quickly in the last 3 or 4 years that really I should do a more live thing, but then organising that has become just a nightmare, you've got to spend a lot of time doing that, and there's that thing as to whether you are prepared to spend that length of time doing that. I think Tony has done fantastically putting together his records and getting out there and promoting it and he works ceaselessly - his website is always kept up to date and he obviously enjoys it and it pays off - but I'm not sure I could do that. I don't think I have that drive.

MS: There's this other soundtrack that I'm aware of - this cartoon film - and I'm not even going to begin to pronounce the title...

DR: La Gabrionella...

MS: Well, whatever, I've got the German one.

DR: The film is called The Little Seagull and the Cat It Taught to Fly. And its based on a story by a Chilean writer Louis Sepulveda. And he was a freedom fighter in Chile and carried his gun and had to get out. He ended up in Rome and he wrote this story and its really a story about fascism and about overcoming prejudice and enemies learning to get on with each other and he wrote this story. It's nearly always in the Italian bestseller lists.

PM: How many languages was it done in?

DR: There's a German, French, Dutch, Italian, obviously, and there was an English version, in fact when I worked on it all the original voices were in English, so I was working to English voices that were recorded in Canada and then they did all the translations.

MS: So the English version was released was it?

DR: No, it was shown at the London Film Festival, 3 years ago, was it? And the guy presenting the festival was ever so nice he said this is a lovely film, but no distributor took it up. But then an American distributor - Tri Mark - bought it, but I gather they were bought by another company and it's just languishing somewhere. But in Italy it was very successful. It was close to just under 2 million people who saw it which is quite good.

MS: How pleased were you with the finished product?

DR: Well now I would change everything or a lot of it. But again the songs, cos that was where I started from and I think those are nice, 'cos they fit in with the film. And the lyrics, 'cos don't suppose they printed those, but they obviously fit in with the action. One nice thing there's a song "We are the Rats" and of course they draw to the song, so the song's actually lead the film at the points where they're in. But it's quite a difficult process you're actually working to stills you work to the voices in their correct timings but you are seeing no movement just black and white, which then jump so you have to sort of picture what's happening. So it's very, very difficult. Now with the better technology you can do it all on a computer. And it was the first time I really got into programming so it was in a lot of ways naive but the director seemed quite happy. It was a really good thing to do and I'm ever so happy that I was asked to do it and pleased that it worked out. 'Cos you can never be sure with film soundtracks that you work is gonna be on their until its actually in the cinemas. Its way more cut throat than the record industry. It's much tougher, much, much tougher.

MS: Although that's probably true for the stuff for the stuff you do with Peter, isn't it? Where you play in the studio for days and days record everything, and when you finally get to hear the finished record...

DR: Oh yeah. On the current record there are things where you've spent a couple of days working on something, 2 bars, if that, or it's so warped you don't recognise it, but that's great as well, because it's somebody really using the media.

MS: Well I think personally for me, that's why I've been able to be so impressed for such a long time. I first heard Peter when I was 12 years old. It's ridiculous to think that here I am 28 years later still listening to this same person - he means more to me in a musical sense than anybody else will ever do, and it's not because I've got this bent on him as a person. It's the music. Every time he does something, it's different. It's fresh.

DR: And he pushes very hard - and you have to work hard. It's not, I mean it's fun, but it's not an easy ride.

MS: How frustrating is it though that you're in for that length of time going over the same piece of music.

DR: Well it's only frustrating when you think you've really achieved something and he's still uncertain, but having said that, you do work until a point of happiness is reached with what's going on but then the whole thing can change a year later 'cos he's decided he didn't like that groove or that melody, so that gets changed, and I always remember, actually when I was at art school, a chap was talking about drawing and he said "every mark you make, you have to re-assess every other mark you've made". And that happens with Peter's work until its on the record - and they're into the fifth cut of the album and I think that today is the complete cut-off date for delivery. So he leaves it until the last minute, but its that reviewing of everything in relation to the last event that's occurred so it makes that a very long process, but a very interesting one.

MS: How big a fan of the music that eventually comes out are you?

DR: There are often things that I'm not so fond of, but you come to understand them better and through playing things, say live, you hope you come up with a different version. Something that you like more, a different approach.

MS: I always thought that the Secret World tour, as good as the US album was, the live shows still got more out of the material. Digging in the Dirt was absolutely superb.

DR: That had a lot to do with the presentation that close cam - it was very exciting. I don't think anybody had seen that close before, so visually I think it was very exciting and it's a great tune to play.

MS: But live it has this menacing guitar...

DR: Oh yes, it's all much grubbier and nastier, yes in a way I haven't listened to it for years but you can take things to a place live that's much tougher and because it's of that moment and you're trying to work in that space

MS: OK. The latest project the soundtrack to the Rabbit Proof Fence - Long Walk Home. What can we expect from the film when its finally shown. Have you seen the finished cut?

DR: Yeah. Well erm... It's not an action movie, and it's not a comedy. It's a very sad tale.

MS: Are people walking out of the cinemas crying though, that's probably the intention.

DR: I don't know. Yeah, the awful things that happened to aborigines it's a heart rending tale. Do you know the story?

MS: I'm familiar with the basic plot, but I haven't read the book.

DR: No I haven't read it. Yeah, so the girls because they're mixed race, they're taken off to an orphanage I suppose which is really like a prison and they're trained to be maids to be absorbed into the white community and hopefully married into the community to breed the aboriginality out of them and Kenneth Brannagh makes a very good misguided Englishman. I suppose he's the office for aborigine affairs and the story is of them escaping and walking 1500 miles or 2000 miles across the outback. Anyway it shows them doing that and being chased by an aboriginal tracker whose daughter is also held at the camp. So he's really torn between really pushing them on to get home and catch them to save his job. And really that's all it is. And this policy was existent until 1971 or 72 and last year a minister, one of Howard's government actually denied that any of this had gone on. And even now with all the refugees its still a pertinent issue in Australia and the film has done very well in Australia. Whether that will be repeated on the world stage... but it's beautifully filmed it's a beautifully made piece of film.

MS: One of the impressions I've got from listening to the music, and I'd say of the three soundtracks that Peter has done, this one makes you want to see the film more than either Birdy or Last Temptation.

DR: Yes its much closer in fact. The soundtrack hasn't been... with Passion he recorded a lot of music and extracted bits for Scorsese to work on, and then made his own record. This one is very much the soundtrack to the film and it's such a shame that Miramax pulled it right at the last minute. It was due for June 15 or 22 release throughout Europe and they just said no and I think it'll be put out in the New Year. It's a very beautiful film and the children act fantastically.

MS: Can't wait to see it! You are credited with percussion on the album...

DR: Oh yeah... bang that drum. I wasn't allowed to play guitar.

MS: There's a bit of guitar and digeridoo it says here. Did that come easy, you know, do you just blow and you get the music or does it take a bit of training?

DR: Well I can't do the circular breathing but I can get some quite interesting notes out of it. Well they normally just have one note. I can get some interesting sounds out of it, and then what we did we kinda put it through guitar pedals and stuff like that. But yeah we had a lot of fun and really the resources we had were very limited and because early on we'd decided to use bird song we felt that using the big drum, the surdu would work, digeridoo and clap sticks. It's amazing when you are pushed how many noises you get out of 2 sticks. Richard became very good at rubbing them together and then we ended up hitting the digeridoo with a stick which actually is what the aborigines do. Yeah at times we were both playing the digeridoo together but striking it with different objects, or we'd hit it at the end or scraping it.

MS: And there's something called a Berembau. What's that?

DR: Berembau - that's a stringed instrument and it's a bit like a bow. Like a long bow with a gourd and you just kind of tune it.

MS: A stringed instrument?

DR: One string.

MS: A one-stringed instrument. OK. Well it's an education, that was the beauty of Passion when that came out, and you'd say "what's that? Is that a person's name or an instrument?" Long Walk Home unfortunately in the reality of the world we live in is gonna be overshadowed by the forthcoming release of the new song based album Up and we also believe there may be a follow up to that called I/O - although I'll believe that when I see it. What does the immediate future hold for you, so far as the promotion of Up is concerned?

DR: Well we go on the road, we start rehearsing - I think we should start this week, but I've been a bit unsure. But I'll get together with Richard, Ged and a keyboard player. We still haven't got a keyboard player. It was gonna be Lisa Connelly. Prince's keyboard player - but she can't do it. I think Peter's trying to decide in the next day or two who's gonna do it.

MS: David Sancious isn't available I take it?

DR: No, again, I think the feeling is it would be good to change the approach, although I think he's still in the frame, I'm not sure. So we start gathering equipment together this week. Actual work begins next week.

MS: And that's for the American tour?

DR: Yeah. So what we do is effectively rehearse the whole of August to get the music in place. We've got one show at the end of August.

MS: This is in Munich?

DR: Yeah, oh so you know about that, which I thought was for a Virgin Party, and I think everybody did. It's actually 20,000 tickets have been sold. I think it is a Virgin bash and we only do a limited set so there wont be any production.

MS: So that would be similar to Seattle last year?

DR: Yeah, then production rehearsals in October and I think the first shows are at the end of November in the States.

MS: I think 5 November is the opening night of the tour.

DR: Oh, so there are probably some warm ups. I don't know I haven't been given a schedule yet.

MS: Do you know anything about the production. Will it be Secret World Live sort of scale?

DR: No it wont be. It can't be. The other thing is that Peter and his management want this leg of the tour to pay for itself. Whereas Secret World took 2 legs to break even 'cos the staging was so excessive. So I think they're gonna try and rein the production.

MS: And Europe dates next year? Do you know anything about that?

DR: At the moment, nothing. Absolutely nothing. So this is it. I think it's a question of seeing how Peter feels 'cos he's just got married and he's just had a baby. It's just a question of feels being on the road. - he's also worried about his father's health. So there are all sorts of things why he may not be happy to be out for too long. And he doesn't really need to tour to generate income. He can generate income in lots of other ways.

PM: So have you been asked to set aside a period of time in terms of when the tour might end?

DR: Well it ends the week before Christmas and then that's it.

MS: And then it's "take it from there" really?

DR: Yeah. I've got no idea. It's not even discussed. We've mentioned it months ago, but I've just got a feeling he just doesn't know.

MS: I should think he's finding it difficult to gauge the level of...

DR: Interest.

MS: Of audience, yeah.

DR: It's very difficult to know if...

MS: Because Secret World Live suffered a little bit, I remember the Birmingham show at the NEC was only announced I dunno about a week or so before the gig.

DR: Was it? Oh.

MS: And tickets hadn't been shifted in the numbers you'd have expected them to have been. Certainly it was only a couple of weeks (It was actually about a month before - a failing memory was letting me down- MS)

DR: I don't think Peter's ever been that strong in... although we used to do Earl's Court a lot, but its never been the happiest of countries to play, yeah he's very well loved in Italy, France and Germany, but England's always been a struggle.

MS: There's a venue in Manchester actually which I think would be ideal for his music. Bridgewater Hall, which actually Youssou played when he toured in 2000, and it was only half full actually. But I imagine Pete would have no problem filling it - but it's an absolutely gorgeous place.

DR: Well its really difficult to know how many tickets to...

PM: But he could do a theatre tour.

MS: Well, I think so...

DR: Yeah but the expense of putting on a tour is huge and as I say if he's got other streaks of income from soundtracks and... just getting songs into film. Does he need to be doing shows? Where it's a lot of work, it's a lot of strain on him for not much result. And the thing is he hasn't performed for years, so how's he gonna feel. I mean if he loves it, then maybe changes the balance of the equation.

MS: I think you have to get the size of the venue right I think that's the mistake that Genesis made with their last thing. They clearly assumed themselves to be huge and of course the whole American thing fell flat, and Yes on the other hand, they had taken a decision to scale everything down to about 2000 seaters and it was brilliant.

DR: Yeah, well that would work, but then again they're most likely a profit sharing organisation whereas Peter doesn't share the profits and he doesn't share his losses. There are realities.

PM: What do you think of the new material?

DR: I have my doubts about one track that's going on there... have you heard any of it?

PM: Not other than the snippets on the website.

MS: I heard one track at the studio last October, having done this remasters stuff with Susie and so on. I got invited down and Dickie Chappell put the tapes up for one of the songs which he told me would be on the album, but I've no idea whether it is. It was this really, like Tower That Ate People, a really extreme loud bit at the beginning.

DR: Oh yeah that's the opening track, Darkness.

MS: That did sound fantastic.

DR: Yeah the sound of the record is remarkable. It's incredibly dense... but that's the running order as of Saturday. It's gonna be very difficult because of the way its been mixed, Tchad Blake has mixed it. Bits of it - the sounds are really weird and things don't necessarily play all the way through a tune. So finding a way through the tunes is going to be difficult. I think it's gonna be a lot of work for all of us.

PM: But with the two guitarists presumably...

DR: It'll make some things easier and other bits where... division of labour is nice but I want to get all the best bits! No. We're just gonna have to work it out. I mean Richard is a fantastic acoustic player so he can do more of that stuff and I can just do the things that I'm better at, which is just making noise.